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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 16:24 |
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| I am really new to this board and am going to start the MP. I have been taking the above named supplement and was wondering if it would be contraindicated. I know that the literature says to stop all supplements but am just curious about the Pycnogenal. Thank you for any response.
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Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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GeorgeinRollaMO
Advocate
| Joined: | Sat Oct 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rolla, Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 331 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 17:51 |
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Hi, Washed Out,
Welcome!!!! to the MP.
I did a Google search on Pycnogenol. The thing that catches my eye fast is the wording, "natural anti-inflammatory". Does that mean like, "natural Prednisone"?
Aspirin came from the "natural" willow bark, if you will remember.
They do not say, and I would bet, they do not know. Then, too, they are selling a product. The MP sites are not selling anything!
Early on the MP, I thought to do a detox thing to move my progress along faster...I thought.  I drank some Essiac Tea, half suggested strength. It is sold as a "detoxifying tea". What with the potentiating effect of Benicar, that "tea" of natural herbs made me the highest "wired" that I have ever been on. I did it just once. That is plenty enough!!!!!! I will never take anything that was contra-indicated now, or of a suspicioius nature, such as a "natural anti-inflammatory" product while doing the MP.
Just one person's experience and thoughts.
Wishing you, and all, wellness!!! 
Dark Vader...aka, George
____________________
Borreliosis (but really Th1 inflammation). Start D values, July '04, 125D/57, 25D/61...over supplementation with D (fish oil).
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 18:02 |
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Hi George,
Thanks for your input. My primary care doc said that it would compare with a steroid pack in that one would feel good while on it and shortly after stopping everything comes back. But my doc wanted me to check out and see what someone else on the MP would have to say. This is all very new to me. I have been treated for Chronic Lyme since 2002 with high power IV antibiotics which my doc feels has almost killed me. One other reason the question about the supplement is that my wife thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread and it is going to be interesting convincing her about this and the new information that I have on Vitamin D.
Again, thanks for responding and hope to hear from you in the future.
Washed
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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markt9452
Member
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 18:36 |
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".....my wife thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread....."
You might want to have another look at that sliced bread also.
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Th1 Lyme vertigo fatigue brain fog skin lesions tinnitis 125D20 D2510 Ph1Feb08 Ph2Apr08 daily lite exp covered up NoIRs| MyStory|
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 18:55 |
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| Don't worry Mark, I have already checked the sliced bread.
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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GeorgeinRollaMO
Advocate
| Joined: | Sat Oct 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rolla, Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 331 |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 19:32 |
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Washed,
I did the heavy antibiotics of the LLMD's for at least four years. And saw my wife not get "cured", also, with the LLMD's ILADS protocols, including IV.
I had three remissions and three relapses. I also did many supplements, too. And Hgh [human growth hormone], colustrum, DHEA, and B-12 shots, and testosterone. Nothing helped!!!!
The MP has given me improvements. Just slow. Read what I wrote in "Joe's Questions" as why I have been slow, possibly, in getting more improvements.
Wishing you, and all, wellness!!!
Dark Vader...aka, George
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Borreliosis (but really Th1 inflammation). Start D values, July '04, 125D/57, 25D/61...over supplementation with D (fish oil).
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Julia
Advocate (on leave)
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 22:28 |
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Washed,
In the topic Why do I have to stop my alternative treatment and avoid most supplements? Dr Marshall says,
The request to avoid supplements comes from the MP Team's valuable experience with many others before us. The MP team is eager for all of us to have an effective and successful journey to wellness.
My position is simple.
All supplements and drugs are likely to give rise to problems.
Focus on what is causing the illness, and use the bare minimum of intervention.
Ultimately the body will look after itself.
Here is a member's experience with Pine Bark (Pycnogenol):
-Whooppee - just received the last lot of 25-hydroxy Vit D test results and they are finally going down - 100nmol/L. Meg, thanks for your help on this challenge for me. I had been taking just one supplement - Pine Bark - and obviously it was causing the problem of raising my D levels in some way, shape or form. Just goes to show how one tiny element can affect the outcome. I am herxing much more strongly now and will delay upping my second antibiotic until these levels reduce more. ~Moxie
Good health, safely!
Julia 
____________________
Always consult a physician
Essential Info; FAQ; Julia's story
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 12:41 |
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Julia,
Thanks for the input. I am presently taking the pycnogenal until I really start the MP more or less to appease a family member. We are waiting for input from my doc on his thoughts about it. She is encouraged that my doc is open-minded about things but I feel will be sadly disappointed when she hears the verdict about it. I already feel more connected with this group than I ever did while I was on the antibiotic regime given by a physician from out of state whom I had contact with once a month per phone and every six months in person. I do have another question though. In regards to the noir glasses, is it possible to get by with just the clip on ones instead of wearing the full surround coverage ones. I am not worried about making a fashion statement, I just want to do the right things.
Washed
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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Knochen
Advocate
| Joined: | Wed Oct 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 224 |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 13:56 |
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In regards to the noir glasses, is it possible to get by with just the clip on ones instead of wearing the full surround coverage ones. I am not worried about making a fashion statement, I just want to do the right things.
You'll do a lot better with the wraparounds. You want as much coverage as possible. The eye protection is a serious matter and shouldn't be marginalized. Even with the wraparounds, a bright day can leak enough light around the edges to be a problem.
Remember, it's not just discomfort you may feel in your eyes at the time of exposure, it's the after effects, some of which can last for a day or two. Trust me, you won't enjoy a twitching night of insomnia after you've been lax about your eyes. And that would be getting off easy, it can make you feel pretty lousy too.
I am presently taking the pycnogenal until I really start the MP more or less to appease a family member.
Good thing family member doesn't believe in purgings or leeches... or would you draw the line there?
____________________
I can help you understand the recovery process, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care.
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 18:40 |
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I do think that I would draw the line there. I know that I have to get better because my being ill for so long as put a lot of stress on the family and marriage and my wife wants me to feel better, yet she is set in her own convictions about certain things so convincing has to be done to preserve communication. I thought that I had a supplier for noir glasses in the city where I live but found out that they had quite a mark-up for their ordering services so am starting to check online and checking out some of the places recommended on the MP website. Again, thanks to everyone who has responded, I truly appreciate the support and answers. Hope everyone is doing as well as can possibly be.
Thanks,
WON
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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GeorgeinRollaMO
Advocate
| Joined: | Sat Oct 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rolla, Missouri USA |
| Posts: | 331 |
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Posted: Thu Jan 24th, 2008 22:32 |
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Hi, Washed Out,
NoIR has a website.... http://www.noir-medical.com where you can do some reading and looking. But telephone them to place an order.
They also have a toll-free number, 800-521-9746. Otherwise, 734-769-5565 They give us a discount if you tell them you are on the MP. They might even send you their 8-page color pamphlet showing all of the styles and shades, if you ask.
Knochen is REALLY correct about protecting the sides as well... when you first start the MP!!!! The "hormone flare" that can be had from not protecting the sides as well can sure make one very miserable for some number of days afterwards, even. I learned that while hosting Trevor at the Kansas City EICS Conference near the beginning of my MP journey, and wearing only front protection. I was wiped out those days as well as afterwards a number of days. I am sure that Trevor thought that I was most inhospitable, back then. The problem goes away somewhat as you progress, but not totally yet for me, outside, such as when driving. The side protection does make me feel more comfortable, and with no lasting bad effects.
The "Fitovers" are the greatest, but the hinge pintle is too weakly designed. They break too easy!  Just dropping them will break the pin.
I have discussed this design flaw with them, but they do not want to invest the money to change the die. They will replace the shade if it has not gone too long since you bought it originally. I wish that they would improve the die for making them.
I suggest the "SpectraShield" as giving the best protection and endurance.
I use the largest size to fit over my aviation style (wide, not the modern small) lens.
And do get the BROWN shade of protection. It cuts the light the best. You'll get use to that color after awhile.
Wishing you, and all, wellness!!!
Dark Vader...aka, George
____________________
Borreliosis (but really Th1 inflammation). Start D values, July '04, 125D/57, 25D/61...over supplementation with D (fish oil).
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P.Bear R.N.
Research Staff
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 06:48 |
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Washed, I see pycnogenol and procynanidins in concentrated forms as being contra-indicated since they can modulate the immune system in many complex and not fully understood ways. Pycnogenol allegedly "aids in the production of endothelial nitric oxide which helps to vasodilate blood vessels." Benicar can do this without the production of nitric oxide that can be a key problem in immunopathologic reactions and in chronic infectious states. Some studies have indicated that some antioxidants can actually help some microbes evade antibiotics and the immune system.
best, P.B.
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Nothing contained in this site is or should be considered, or used as a substitute for, medical advice, diagnosis or treatment by your physician.
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 14:07 |
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Thanks George and P.Bear, I appreciate all of the input. I was looking at the larger glasses with the wrap around parts (Spectrashields) so hopefully will have them in a few days. The information on the pycnogenol is very helpful, I just have to figure out hold to tell my wife that I am not going to take it anymore. Right now I am waiting on my doctor to get authorization for the Benicar, which I do not know how long it will take. Again, thanks for the information and am looking forward to being able to ask more questions.
Washed
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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Julia
Advocate (on leave)
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 15:59 |
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Washed,
You might like to tell your wife that taking supplements was nearly the death of me. We understand so little of the things we cheerfully swallow! I was taking cod liver oil for my arthritis - cod liver oil is Good For You, right?? Meanwhile I was getting more and more ill with hypercalcemia connected to my sarcoidosis, until my specialist warned me my kidneys were in danger of packing up.
Mercifully by this time I'd discovered the Marshall Protocol, and realised that the trouble lay in the massive dose of vitamin D that is naturally in cod liver oil, along with a sunny holiday when my body was busy making the 'Sunshine Vitamin'. Stopping cod liver oil, staying out of the sun, and cutting vitamin D from my diet returned my calcium levels to normal in just two weeks.
All the things we need are in a normal, varied diet, with plenty of fresh fruit and veg, good home cooking, and no junk food. We just don't know how supplements interact with the MP meds, so it's safer to drop them all.
Good health, safely!
Julia
P.S. the arthritis is very slowly responding to the MP
____________________
Always consult a physician
Essential Info; FAQ; Julia's story
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 19:01 |
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Thanks for the encouragement Julia, I really appreciate it. She is coming from the viewpoint that we have spent 4 years doing the antibiotic route without much improvement so she wants to try the natural road for awhile. I am sure that she will come around sooner or later. I only wish that I or we would have had this much support on the IV stuff. We kind of felt like we were flying by the seat of our pants with the doctor being a couple of states away and only communicating on a limited basis. I must admit without sounding like I am whining but I am tired of the whole mess and want to start to get better. Sorry for whining.
Thanks,
Washed Out
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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mebauer
Member
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 19:10 |
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Hey Washed out-
Can I ask what your diagnosis is? What they have tried for you in the past?
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~Mel~ CFS, undx.
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Knochen
Advocate
| Joined: | Wed Oct 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 224 |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 21:36 |
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we have spent 4 years doing the antibiotic route without much improvement so she wants to try the natural road for awhile. I am sure that she will come around sooner or later. I only wish that I or we would have had this much support on the IV stuff. We kind of felt like we were flying by the seat of our pants with the doctor being a couple of states away and only communicating on a limited basis. I must admit without sounding like I am whining but I am tired of the whole mess and want to start to get better.
Well, you were kinda half right with the IV approach, but were missing a key part of the puzzle, the VDR involvement, Benicar, and lifestyle changes. But at least you know that the IV alone won't work, and that you have a good support group here.
As for complaining, we've all been there. Just wanting to get better comes with the territory! I wouldn't call it whining, it's just frustration leaking out around the edges. It sounds like you are making the commitment to go for it, and that's the big step. Hopefully, the Benicar will give you some immediate gains and that will help bring your wife on board when she sees that you are responding in a predicatble way. But that's a roll of the dice, some people feel better on benicar, some worse, some not much change. Only one way to find out.
____________________
I can help you understand the recovery process, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care.
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Washed Out Nurse
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 22nd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oklahoma USA |
| Posts: | 15 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 17:04 |
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Well, I am back and even more frustrated than before. Has anyone ever heard of a Kenneth Singleton out in Virginia DC area? The reason that I ask is that my wife is at a conference out there and spoke with this guy's wife who said that the MP wasn't very successful and that her husband was releasing a new book about treating Lyme Disease and has a part in it about the MP. I absolutely do not know where to turn. It seems that every step of the way I am getting interference about this. I feel lost as I would like to have some support on the home front or it will be even more difficult to follow the protocol. I am at my wit's end.
To answer a question posed before. My dx is Post Lyme Syndrome, Fatigue, and Hypervitaminosis D. i have spent the better part of the last 5 years on antibiotics of some sort from Rocephin 4gms daily, to Avelox, Bactrim, Cephalexin, Metronidazole, Fluconazole po, to zithromax, meetronidazole and rocephin IV and that is all that I can remember at present. My doc feels like I might be or had been serum sick with all the meds that I was on. So at present I am not taking any antibiotics, the only medication that I am taking is Zoloft for depression, and pain medication as I live at a 5-6 on the pain scale most of the time but a great deal of the time it goes to a 9 and my fatigue is unbelievable. Anyway, that is me in a nutshell or nutcase whichever way you want to look at it. The other day at work I made a comment about something was driving me nuts and one of my well meaning co-workers said that it would be a very short trip.
WON
____________________
Diagnois: Fatigue; Post Lyme Disease Syndrome
Symptoms: Fatigue, night sweats, head pain, burning in thigh, severe hand pain, brain fog.
Lab: 25-Dihyroxyvitamin D=45ng/ml, 1,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D 54ng/ml, CRP=0.2mg/dl
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 19:15 |
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Never spoken to Ken Singleton. Well, at least I have no record of him ever having contacted me.
Book are dime a dozen these days. Anybody can write a book, and self-publish it. When Ken starts putting his reputation openly on the internet, as we have done, only then will his opinions be worthy of note.
However, if you can get me any contact details I would be happy to supply him with data showing how effective the MP is in chronic Lyme
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Julia
Advocate (on leave)
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Posted: Sun Jan 27th, 2008 19:30 |
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| His website is LymeDoctor.com.
____________________
Always consult a physician
Essential Info; FAQ; Julia's story
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