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Jayppers
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Posted: Sun Oct 12th, 2008 15:26 |
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Thanks for your thoughts, Chris. I plan on reviewing the link you provided sometime today.Regarding your response: "They are seeing the effects of vitamin-D without realizing it."
Based on my own analysis, although I do not deny that exogenous D from fish oils (noteably liver oils) is of important consideration here, I personally don't believe that the vitamin D is entirely behind what is being observed here.
Although there is no doubt that the vitamin D does factor into the equation, I do believe that there is another reason for why they have isolated fish oils in particular. I say this because the general rule is that the more unsaturated the fat, the more immunosuppressive it is to the system, and fish oils are more highly unsaturated than other polyunsaturated oils such as canola, safflower, and sunflower oil.
They used to use polyunsaturated fats for organ transplant recipients because they noted the immunosuppressive effect it had on the patient, and lessened organ rejection immensely. At the same time though, they noted a clear escalation of cancer rates in the patients being supplied with the immunosuppressive oils. Since fish oils came along, the specific fatty acids in them are much more highly immunosuppressive , and is why they have become the hot topic for auto-immune diseases; Not because they help solve the root of the problem, but because they dampen the immune response and aid the patient by lessening symptoms. But we all know what is really happening.
We should note here that polyunsaturated oils like safflower and sunflower carry immunosuppressive characteristics, but are generally known not to have any significant exogenous vitamin D content that would lend full explanation for any immunosuppression that resulted from their consumption. This is thus why I believe that the fatty acids themselves carry the immunosuppressive traits, aside from the exogenous vitamin D; However, add in exogenous vitamin D to that same oil and you greatly increase the immunosuppressive profile of that oil/fat.
Jason
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Jayppers
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Posted: Mon Oct 13th, 2008 18:50 |
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What is the typical amount of time that it takes to have the 1,25D3 test completed by Quest?
I had my sample drawn and sent to Quest on 9/24, and today my doctor's office informed me that the results for the 1,25D have not come back yet.
I was thinking two weeks, but am just curious if anyone know typically how long Quest is taking to have these results back.
Just curious.
Thanks,
Jason
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Knochen
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Posted: Mon Oct 13th, 2008 19:51 |
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I've had it take as long as 6 weeks. No idea why.
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I can help you understand the recovery process, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care.
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Jayppers
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Posted: Mon Oct 13th, 2008 20:20 |
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I received back my D test results just a moment ago.
25OHD: 40 ng/ml
1,25OHD: 78 pg/ml
My doctor replied that this is not abnormal to him and would not harm me, even though he stated that the normal range was clearly (for their office) between 15 and 60 pg/ml. How can a doctor clearly say that this is normal when it is obviously 18 pg/ml above the upper limit? I am very frustrated right now, because they are referring me to an endocrinologist so that 'they can better help me understand these results.'
I've posted my results to the other thread: http://www.curemyth1.org/forum5/1119.html
Last edited on Mon Oct 13th, 2008 21:45 by Jayppers
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Jayppers
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Posted: Mon Oct 13th, 2008 21:56 |
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Is the study site still closed for new members/patients looking to move forward with the MP?
---
Nevermind.... I think I found my own answer.
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum18/12042.html
Thanks,
Jason
Last edited on Mon Oct 13th, 2008 22:01 by Jayppers
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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JoshR
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Posted: Tue Oct 14th, 2008 00:25 |
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Jayppers wrote:
I received back my D test results just a moment ago.
25OHD: 40 ng/ml
1,25OHD: 78 pg/ml
My doctor replied that this is not abnormal to him and would not harm me, even though he stated that the normal range was clearly (for their office) between 15 and 60 pg/ml. How can a doctor clearly say that this is normal when it is obviously 18 pg/ml above the upper limit? I am very frustrated right now, because they are referring me to an endocrinologist so that 'they can better help me understand these results.'
Hey, it's not all bad news—congrats on reducing your 25-D by so much!
I think your doctor may not quite understand what a lab reference range means. Usually, by definition, it's the range into which 95% of samples fall. So it says nothing about whether a result is healthy, just about what proportion of people will have it. If there are lots of sick people being tested, the range will be skewed, and we are currently in the midst of a chronic disease epidemic...
You may like to point out that the Merck manual lists a maximum of 45 pg/ml for 1,25-D, and that this number was based on healthy population studies.
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5/6 CFS criteria, 125D36 Ph1Jul08 Ph2Sep08 25D8(Sep08) NoIRs covered up (except hands) low lux home minimal light exp r/t work
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Lind
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Posted: Tue Oct 14th, 2008 01:32 |
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Jason,
Is your doctor following the MP? From everything I have read, anything above 20pg/ml of 1,25 D is immunosuppressive. I think when you post your results in the forum for Vit. D metabolites analysis, you will get a more realistic picture of Th1 immune disease and where you stand. Also, I read that any result over 12pg/ml is proof positive of Th1 inflammatory disease. Less than that is severe viral infection.
Anyhow, I would rely more on what the advocates on this forum tell you and not your doctor's interpretation unless he is well versed in the MP. Just my opinion. I'm new to all of this as well, but reading as much as I can. 
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Pre MP, Crohn's-like GI symptoms, Borreliosis, CFS,Fibromyalgia, MP diet, no UV protection 25D=54ng/ml. 1,25D= 31pg/ml.
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Jayppers
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Posted: Tue Oct 14th, 2008 01:46 |
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Lind,
No, my doctor is not an established MP practitioner, so I am not surprised that he responded to my results in such a way; Disappointed, yes, very, because it shows that he really didn't read and fully comprehend the extensive amount of MP related material I provided to him when requesting the D tests.
My trouble now is finding a doctor who will agree to pursue the MP with me, or at least initiate a therapeutic probe.
From everything I have read, anything above 20pg/ml of 1,25 D is immunosuppressive.
Did you mean to say... "anything above 20 ng/ml of 25OHD is immunosuppressive?"
Additionally, you stated:
Also, I read that any result over 12 pg/ml is proof positive of Th1 inflammatory disease. Less than that is severe viral infection.
According to Dr. Marshall, anything over 15 pg/ml is indicative of a Th1 dominant immune system. Here is an excerpt from a page on the MP site:
High 1,25 D
High values are always reliable. If a sample is mishandled by the lab, the value will decay to a lower value. Therefore, as long as the result is high, it can be regarded as reliable. The Danish 1,25-D population data, which is the largest study and the most reliable we have, found that the mean value for 1,25-D in a normal population was 29 pg/ml with a standard deviation of 9.5. By plugging a value of (42-29)/9.5 = 1.37 as z into an online statistical calculator you can find the percent of the population that would have a lower value. Levels above 15 pg/ml, while not high, do indicate a dominant Th1 immune system response versus an immune system response to a viral infection. Levels above 30 pg/ml suggest systemic inflammation. If the 1,25-D exceeds the Merck maximum of 45 pg/ml, it indicates that the patient is in the top 2 percent of the population and at risk of skeletal wasting due to osteoclast stimulation by the 1,25-D. Many of labs list ridiculous ranges for 1,25-D. The Merck manual reports the maximum value for 1,25-D is 45 pg/ml.
Extremely high 1,25 D
Levels above 60 pg/ml indicate well-perfused inflammation, where the inflamed tissue is close to the bloodstream. Usually that means lung or heart involvement. Dr. Marshall tells physicians that anybody with a 1,25-D over 80pg/ml is at risk of a cardiac Herxheimer reaction. Therefore, the doctor needs to be very sure to give enough 40mg Benicar tablets to be able to increase to q4hr dosing if the patient experiences chest pain, bradycardia or other cardiac arrhythmia due to an immune system reaction.
I had no idea my results would come back so high. The fact that I obviously am experiencing 1) systemic inflammation, but also that which is involving major organs, is quite scary, to be honest, simply because finding an MP-centric doctor will most likely prove most challenging.
Jason
Last edited on Tue Oct 14th, 2008 01:49 by Jayppers
____________________
Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Lind
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Posted: Tue Oct 14th, 2008 02:25 |
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Yep, I meant ng/ml. A little brain fogged or dyslexic. It seems your reading has been much more thorough than mine. Anyhow, I guess my point is to rely on the researchers here to interpret your results. You seem to have a very good understanding of the subject and somehow I think we know intuitively what is wrong with our health. That is why we refuse to accept what doctors have told us so far.
I think I was lucky to find a doctor off the list for my state who is only an hour and a half away. We have only had one visit and are still waiting for the D metabolites to come back. I went to Quest and they didn't run the 1,25D test as intstructed so I had to go back for a second draw. Now I have to wait two more weeks. Oh well, I have waited 25 years. Light is at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck and I hope you find a doctor soon who understands the MP.
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Pre MP, Crohn's-like GI symptoms, Borreliosis, CFS,Fibromyalgia, MP diet, no UV protection 25D=54ng/ml. 1,25D= 31pg/ml.
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Jayppers
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Posted: Tue Oct 14th, 2008 02:36 |
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Thanks, Lind
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Jayppers
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Posted: Wed Oct 15th, 2008 01:37 |
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Finally got to speak with my primary care doctor today. He admitted complete ignorance around the MP and didn't read the material I provided. He said he didn't know what to do with it. He is not on board for treatment with the MP, so I'm on to find another practitioner.
If anyone knows of any good doctors in Ohio (specifically central Ohio), please don't hesitate to let me know!
I already requested the list of doctors via this forum. I've been corresponding with one via e-mail, but he is reluctant to suspect Th1, even given my insanely high D results. He is instead wanting to look at comprehensive stool analysis, etc. <sigh>.
The voyage continues.
Thanks,
Jason
____________________
Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Lind
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Posted: Wed Oct 15th, 2008 03:50 |
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Jason,
I know what you are going through. It is so frustrating to find a doctor to treat you and understand the protocol. I live in Virginia and my daughters live in Ohio. I believe they both have Th1 inflammatory disease as their symptoms are the same and somewhat worse than mine.
My oldest daughter just registered on this site and did get a list of Ohio doctors. She is in the process of contacting them and hopefully finding one. It seems the naturopathic doctors are the best on the list in the Akron area. If she has good success with one I will let you know. If you would like for her to PM you on any doctors, let me know and I will tell her.
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Pre MP, Crohn's-like GI symptoms, Borreliosis, CFS,Fibromyalgia, MP diet, no UV protection 25D=54ng/ml. 1,25D= 31pg/ml.
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Jayppers
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Posted: Wed Oct 15th, 2008 13:45 |
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Absolutely, Lind. I would be appreciative of any help I can get. If they meet with success with any of the doctors here in Ohio, please let me know!
Thank-you so much for your consideration.
Best wishes to you, Lind.
Jason
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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Jayppers
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 12:56 |
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Question for the Advocates:
Hello, all. I am still pre-MP. I have found an MP doctor about 2 hours away that I have not yet begun to see, but in the mean time before beginning, I have a question.
Since avoiding exogenous D by supplements and food, and also avoiding sun and bright light exposure as much as possible, my Shingles has been running rampant and causing me quite a bit of problems.
When reading about shingles, there is a common theme present that it represents a depression of the immune system, especially in immunocompromised individuals (like myself).
By dropping all exogenous D and sun/bright lights, I thought that I would gradually be doing my immune system a favor by removing immunosuppresion (which I know I am by way of the MP conclusions on exogenous D).
Q: Is my reactivation of shingles a sign that my immune system is coming back online and trying to fight the virus in my nervous system, or is it a sign that my immune is becoming further compromised and not able to handle the viral load, and hence, reactivation of the virus and related inflammatory symptoms are a result?
In immunopathology, I realize the inflammation and discomfort is caused by the immune system itself, so I'm confused as to whether this is a sign that my immune system is less or more responsive as a result of dropping exogenous D and sun/bright lights.
Thank-you for your time. I realize this question might not be easily answered, but I'm hoping to get at least some type of direction as to what might be happening to me here, considering my rough time managing the shingles.
Jason
Last edited on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 16:55 by Jayppers
____________________
Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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natalie17
Advocate
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Posted: Fri Oct 31st, 2008 02:09 |
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Hi Jason,
Suggest you see/review;
Should I wear NoIRs, avoid natural light exposure and eliminate vitamin D before starting Benicar?
.. which includes what may happen if you do.
..... a sign that my immune system is coming back online and trying to fight the virus in my nervous system
My non-medical, personal opinion is that that's what it is which is good news ...However don't let it get too uncomfortable and if you're not sure how to stop it if it does become too uncomfortable, let us know.
Also see info on shingles.
Take care,
Natalie
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I can help you understand the recovery process, but only your physician is licensed to give you medical care.| ABCofMP|My Story
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Jayppers
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Posted: Fri Oct 31st, 2008 14:40 |
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Thank-you, Natalie.
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Pre-MP | Reading, learning, and searching for MP doctor
09/24/08 | 25OHD = 40 ng/ml (down from 63 12/2007)
09/24/08 | 1,25OHD = 78 pg/ml
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